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Post by silentstranger on Oct 15, 2008 15:59:55 GMT -8
I agree that homosexuality should be taught only after puberty has hit. If Op outs are not given, then it should happen when the huge sex/AIDS and all the other movies about the world's problems are shown. By that time kids will be able to know things about how they are as a person. If I were lectured about gay marriage in kindergarten I know that I would be changed. I would be bisexual at the very least, and I don't like the thought of it. When looks at the big picture, if all of the world were told at an immature age then eventually there would be no way to make babies. "but sperm donations would change that." Well, let's thinks about that for a minute: Who wants to get pregnant and spend 9 months growing a new human who's father you don't know at all? Who wants to loose all traces of genealogy? Who in the world wants the rest of the world, much less themselves, to be giving birth to bastard children? I don't know about you guys, but I shudder at the thought.
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Detrevni
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"Balllttttttaaaaaaaaaarrr!!!"
I'm not a cylon!
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Post by Detrevni on Oct 15, 2008 16:22:19 GMT -8
I agree that homosexuality should be taught only after puberty has hit. But of course. There's no need to burden children with knowledge that they can't fully understand. However, I see no way that finding out about someone having two fathers or two mothers could in anyway harm a child. It may even reduce schoolyard bigotry and bullying if that sort of thing is seen earier in life. I must disagree with you at this point. The only external actions that have been shown to affect sexuality is sexual abuse at an early age. Merely knowing about something does not predisposition you for it. I knew about murder and violence at an early age, somehow I'm not a serial killer. I knew about homosexuality probably around 2nd grade, and I can assure you that I in no way would like to have sexual relations with another man. ...I don't understand. Sperm donors allow married couples who cannot conceive due to the father's impotence to have children. Why is that wrong? Many children are born with this method. Would you label all of them "bastards"? I can understand that many religions frown upon mastur bation, but I believe that the phrasing is "spill his seed on the ground" whereas this "seed" would be used to create new life. I fail to see how that is morally objectionable. I digress from the primary topic. The fact is that family values are taught at home, and it's really up to the parents to impress those values on their children. The world is a big place and the public school system is there to provide children with as much information as possible before they are deposited out into it.
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Post by Zeffa! on Oct 15, 2008 16:41:29 GMT -8
If I were lectured about gay marriage in kindergarten I know that I would be changed. I would be bisexual at the very least. I must disagree with you at this point. The only external actions that have been shown to affect sexuality is sexual abuse at an early age. Merely knowing about something does not predisposition you for it. I knew about murder and violence at an early age, somehow I'm not a serial killer. I knew about homosexuality probably around 2nd grade, and I can assure you that I in no way would like to have sexual relations with another man. I fully agree. Imagery and confusion are one thing, but simply learning about homosexuality isn't going to alter your biological sexual drive and change what you view as attractive. Like any homosexual will tell you, it's not a choice or a decision they made at an early age. It's just what naturally happened, they got these urges the same way other kids got theirs. Homosexual kids went through school learning about normal sex, and they still ended up ignoring it, so why would the inverse be any different?
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Echo
Gangsta'
The Drill Sergent and resident Buffalo
Climber of trees and burner of un-shiny trees.
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Post by Echo on Oct 15, 2008 19:20:46 GMT -8
The following is a presentation of both my own and Sorrows collected thoughts on the matter:
(Sorrows) I seemed to have missed the point in the diversity book where the two ‘daddies’ were having sexual relations. I thought it was simply introducing households with same gender adults, living and loving the same as socially accepted child’s parents are. I didn’t realize that there was any depth in this picture as to the exact process of ‘love making’ between same gender partners. After seeing that picture as a child, I wouldn’t think to myself ‘Oh, his dad sticks his *bleep* in the other dad’s butt every night’… -.-;
This was simply an introduction to something that exists in society. Same as showing a picture of a child with different skin, without going into the years of discrimination, slavery and immoral slangs associated with it. Does the child question it? No, he simply knows it to be commonplace and more aware of its existence early in life to better be prepared to accept it growing up.
If a child asks his teacher ‘why does this boy have two daddies and no mommy like me?’ the teacher won’t say, ‘Well, that’s because his daddies like to have sexual relations with other men’, they’ll say ‘because they love each other just like your mommy and daddy do’. There’s nothing potentially harmful and life altering about this discovery as a small child.
While I agree it would be morally wrong if the issue was the teaching of homosexual orientation at the kindergarten age, I see no evidence that this is what that is. This is simply an image describing that there is no difference in the household who has a mommy and daddy and one with two daddies/mommies.
This is all just blown way out of proportion and context, using assumptions from a piece of political propaganda designed to make you believe this is a huge moral issue, when, in fact, it’s simple enough that a kindergartener would understand.
(End Sorrows)
Now, I have a rather large problem with your following statement and its confliction with the beginning of this discussion.
And the following:
The entire discussion is the legalization of gay marriage and your opening statement was why you believed that gay marriage should not be legalized. So you took the opposing side to the legalization of gay marriage and your reasons were under discussion. Yet you conveniently claim Raiku as the only person to see your reasoning behind not legalizing gay marriage. Your point should have been completely clear in the first post you made unveiling your opinion in the matter and yet it seems that your reasoning has changed over time from “Gay Marriage should not be legalized because it will force children within the public elementary school system to learn of it,” to “I just didn’t like the idea that the parents couldn’t opt out of having their children taught.”
Again your confusion is un-ending when you claim to be the innocent puppy and state that you have not brought forth a solution when I’m very sure it was your opening statement. The legalization of gay marriage was the issue and you discussed why it should not be legalized due to young children learning of it and parents of those children not being able to opt out of their children learning it, thusly your solution to the legalization of gay marriage is to vote that it should not be legalized. Was that not your solution? If not, then why did you state:
And there’s no problem?
I am pretty sure that you have a problem and that’s why your debating your views so vigorously. Admirable.
Now in regard to where my nose currently is, your right in saying that you’re not woman enough to touch it, nor any part of my body as far as your concerned.
Yes, I am a great man but I make no affiliation with good nor evil, only what I deem worthy of my attention.
Now before you get all ‘gung-hoe’ about my retort to your post, consider this: You insult that which is my manhood when you have no idea of what being a man truly is, nor have you ever encountered a man, save to say for your father which I will give no opinion on due to the lacking of knowledge of him. A good man from what I’ve heard. Insult that which is my manhood and you should expect an equal reaction, take it from Einstein.
And Darling, that tree which was once a proud and beautiful tree has long since lost its luster in the eyes of this climber.
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Post by Raiku on Oct 15, 2008 19:57:02 GMT -8
As I recall, that seemed to be the major discussion point. But that's the last I'll say about the matter. Not gonna play your game.
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Cobalt-60
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Detrevni's Buddy
Sharks don't love you back.
Posts: 127
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Post by Cobalt-60 on Oct 16, 2008 1:51:22 GMT -8
Let's get this tiny bit cleared up right now: I would like to raise a point, as your resident queer (if you didn't know by now, I am bisexual).
This is not a choice. There was no point in my life where I suddenly decided I wanted to be bisexual. I am not bisexual because I just like sex and don't care who I have it with. Frankly, as far as sex is concerned, I can take it or leave it. Bisexuality is as much a part of who I am as my eye color or height.
The only "choice" a homosexual man has is whether or not he lives a lie. The reason there seem to be far more homosexuals running around nowadays than any time in the past is not because of decaying moral values in our society - it is because back in the "good 'ol days" if a gay man came out of the closet, he would most likely get beaten to death with sticks.
I would like to make this comparison: imagine you live in a world where homosexual relationships are the norm. Imagine that anyone caught having relations with someone of the opposite sex was either severely beaten or killed. Then imagine that you are told that you chose to be straight. You know you're straight - you've always known you were straight. But because you dared to be who you are instead of attempting to lie to yourself and hide so that "decent people" wouldn't have to be offended by your "perversion", you get beaten up at school and perhaps one day killed.
Sexual orientation is not a choice. If it was - and trust me on this one - there wouldn't be hardly any gay folks at all.
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Post by Dark Beauty on Oct 16, 2008 7:06:30 GMT -8
Gosh, this sure exploded since last I looked at it. I must disagree with you at this point. The only external actions that have been shown to affect sexuality is sexual abuse at an early age. Merely knowing about something does not predisposition you for it. I knew about murder and violence at an early age, somehow I'm not a serial killer. I knew about homosexuality probably around 2nd grade, and I can assure you that I in no way would like to have sexual relations with another man. I fully agree. Imagery and confusion are one thing, but simply learning about homosexuality isn't going to alter your biological sexual drive and change what you view as attractive. Like any homosexual will tell you, it's not a choice or a decision they made at an early age. It's just what naturally happened, they got these urges the same way other kids got theirs. Homosexual kids went through school learning about normal sex, and they still ended up ignoring it, so why would the inverse be any different? Oh, I dunno. I think my little sister has a point to be thought about. Obviously, Det, you’re not a serial killer because when you learned about murder, you knew it was inherently wrong. Everyone taught you that. Because homosexuality isn’t inherently wrong (to everyone, though some people believe it is – thank you for your big post, Zephyr, I appreciated it btw), I could see where kids would get confused. Let’s look at it a bit differently for a moment. Before puberty, I think we can agree that boys and girls don’t really get along. Each sex has cooties and must be avoided, and we make close friends with people of the same sex. If I was taught in kindergarten that being in love with someone of the opposite gender was part of everyday life, then I can see how my life would be changed as I grew up. I would get confused about my feelings toward my best galfriends, because I cared very much for them. Thistle and I would probably be lovers right now. If, however, they taught me about homosexuality being a part of everyday life when I was in 4th or 5th grade (aka puberty), then it wouldn’t affect me, since I would not be confused as to how I felt about others at that point. Sorrows, I appreciate your comments. They are insightful. And the following: The entire discussion is the legalization of gay marriage and your opening statement was why you believed that gay marriage should not be legalized. So you took the opposing side to the legalization of gay marriage and your reasons were under discussion. Yet you conveniently claim Raiku as the only person to see your reasoning behind not legalizing gay marriage. Your point should have been completely clear in the first post you made unveiling your opinion in the matter and yet it seems that your reasoning has changed over time from “Gay Marriage should not be legalized because it will force children within the public elementary school system to learn of it,” to “I just didn’t like the idea that the parents couldn’t opt out of having their children taught.” Ah. I can see where you might get that idea. I worded it wrong, apparently. I meant what I said - gay marriage, in my opinion, should not be legalized if the rights of parents, as a result, are taken away, not because it's a terrible abomination. My stance has been, from the beginning, just that. My views on homosexuality do not directly tie into that. The fact that gay marriage is resulting in parental rights being stripped away makes me think that it shouldn't be legalized. Again, I can see where you got your problem/solution thing. I am sorry for the confusion. I never claimed to be an innocent puppy. I can be a full grown *female dog* when I want to be. Hm. *Keeps silent* I never insulted your *bleep*, darling. I pointed out that no real man would sit there and insult people and still suggest that he is one. So... you won't attack my father, but you'll attack every MAN that I have encountered? What do you know about my life? What right do you have to say who I have encountered and who I have not? You know nothing about me save that I can get an A- out of a senior math class when a sophomore and that I can be a friggin' wonderful brat when I want to be. Oh, and the Einstein comment: you insulted my friend first. I reacted. You're right! Good gracious. Don't tell me who I have and haven't encountered. You cannot fathom how many real men I've met, except to know that you're not one of them. Oh, wonderful! That's great! Time for the climber to move on to a different tree now. Just because the climber doesn't want to climb such an fugly tree doesn't mean that he should try and chop it down. It will fall when it will. Cobalt, I am really glad that you decided to jump in. I’ve been waiting for your comments for a while now, and I am very happy that you’re being kind about this. I would also like to clear something up: I never meant to make it seem like I was insulting anyone with a different sexual orientation than I. I very much appreciate your analogy, since I have often thought of that. Though my views on the psychological background of homosexuality may differ from yours, I wholeheartedly agree that beating people about it and not letting them live their own life is wrong. No, I don’t think that same-sex marriage should be legalized, but it’s mainly because of this issue that I brought up. Again, thank you. I respect you and am so glad that you entered this very hostile thread in a kind manner.
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Echo
Gangsta'
The Drill Sergent and resident Buffalo
Climber of trees and burner of un-shiny trees.
Posts: 148
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Post by Echo on Oct 16, 2008 12:39:51 GMT -8
The destruction of this thread seems most-likely if I am to post my commentary towards your last post, darling, so with the input of Cobalt, let's see where this thread can go.
Is not the best way for a tree regain its luster to burn it down and start again? Oh, and it's 'trees,' not 'tree.' The climber has moved onto different trees.
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Detrevni
Gangsta'
"Balllttttttaaaaaaaaaarrr!!!"
I'm not a cylon!
Posts: 405
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Post by Detrevni on Oct 16, 2008 12:48:28 GMT -8
Echo: I would say that Dark has encountered quite a few men. I consider myself a man. Raiku's a fine specimen of the male species, as is Cobalt. She knows many many men. If you're going to try and attack someone personally, at least get it to stick. I mean, honestly, you're not endearing yourself to anyone here. You insulted every male on these forums in one fell swoop. D'OH! This thread is awesome. I thrive on conflict And at least this forum, unlike other forums I belong to, doesn't erupt into total drama when there's some heated discussion. I'm not so sure. I doubt you and thistle would have done the nasty simply because of all the pressure on the both of you to do the opposite. And girls' sexuality has always seemed more fluid than guys'. I don't know if there is any scientific evidence to back that up, but from personal observations, that's how it seems. Now, maybe you'd be more likely to kiss girls as a party stunt ( the usual scenario) because you wouldn't have such strong moral but That doesn't make someone bisexual or a lesbian. Not anymore than if I was dared to kiss a man on the lips would make me gay. (or bisexual) I dunno from the looks of one tree I know of they're more like shrubberies. Round and low to the ground ZING
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Post by Dark Beauty on Oct 16, 2008 14:01:02 GMT -8
Echo: I would say that Dark has encountered quite a few men. I consider myself a man. Raiku's a fine specimen of the male species, as is Cobalt. She knows many many men. If you're going to try and attack someone personally, at least get it to stick. I mean, honestly, you're not endearing yourself to anyone here. You insulted every male on these forums in one fell swoop. D'OH! Indeed. And Echo, you got all wound up in a knot about someone trying to douse some of the accidental fire that was burning because of the misunderstanding that you brought to light. You're right, I don't need help in an argument, because I am a "big girl" (oh, wait, no I'm not - I'm a tree being burned down because I'm not shiny anymore), but it was a kind gesture. What kind gesture do YOU have going for you? I've enjoyed the discussion threads here for that same reason. Granted, I seem to always be on the side that hardly anyone else is on, but I don't mind, because MOST of you keep your replies logical and kind. Another reason is because Thistle and I demand the no-swearing rule be kept - you go to other forums and it ends in a cussing match where nobody makes a good point at all. ...How come you can get away with calling it "the nasty?" I am going to kindly disagree and tell you that it's what would have happened. I know my mentality. As to other girls, maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't... but raising girls my entire life has made me believe that it would. There are less lesbians than gays, I suppose, and I think it's because women are wired to want to be with someone who can protect them. It's psychological. You ever wonder why a lot of women like older men? It's because of the maturity and ability to provide and protect. So maybe it would change later to bisexuality - but I know I'd think I was lesbian until at least 5th grade, because I cared very deeply for my female friends, and it would be easy to mistake that love for a different kind. Even after 5th grade, because of what I went through with the boys there, I'd probably still convince myself I was lesbian. But oh well.
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Cobalt-60
Gangsta'
Detrevni's Buddy
Sharks don't love you back.
Posts: 127
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Post by Cobalt-60 on Oct 16, 2008 16:45:37 GMT -8
The thing is - that's exactly what happens with gay and bisexual kids right now, except reversed. They grow up assuming they are straight, and then once puberty sets in, they begin to realize that they are in fact, not. Quite a large percentage of gay men have had relationships with women in the past, before they knew their orientation.
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Post by Raiku on Oct 16, 2008 17:55:35 GMT -8
researchcesead and toss a couple points into the arena from my perspective. I'll admit I am curious as to how homosexuality comes about. From my understanding, it can't be just genetic. Granted, I think it might tip the scales one way or another on a molecular level, but I believe environment has a powerful effect as well. ( www.narth.com/docs/080307Abbott_NARTH_article.pdf ) I'm interested in delving into it a little more, because it is an interesting field to dive into. We still have a lot to learn about our genes. It's ironic really, we know so much about the world, yet we have yet completelytly understand ourselves. In any case, here comes the next point. I have no quarrel with homosexual, or bisexual individuals. Doesn't matter to me. I'm not saying I approve of it, but I respect it and value those people as 'people', and nothing less. We're all human people, and when it comes down to it, when the end of days rolls around, we are all we are gonna have. So make nice. As for tMassachusettstts thing: I believe that the parents should have been given fair warning and an option. Didn't much care for the video because it came across as cheesy and poorly written, but from a non-editorial standpoint, the logic makes sense. I understand the argument that several years ago we were taught that being African-American was not normal, and they we should never accept them. I see the logic behind comparing that to todays issue, but they are tcompletelytseparateate things. It goes back to the genetic issue if whether or not you are truly born that way. Being black had nothing to do with environment, it's genetic and itprovedven. Until I see hard-evidence that homosexuality and bisexuality are the same way, I have to stand by that it is a non-related variable and therefore cannot be affiliated with the same type of argument. There needs to be some proof on the genetic level before anything else, is what I'm trying to get at. Back to the school, I'm getting off topic. They needed to send out some parental consent letters, I think. Parents should discuss it with their children when they feel the timing is appropriate. A school is where a child grows into being a young adult, and the teachers there are one of the major influences on how they grow, so I think every parent should choose. Some will accept it, others deny it, doesn't matter, as long as the window is supplied. There ya go.
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Post by Thistle on Oct 16, 2008 19:31:56 GMT -8
Alright Kids. You've woken mommy with your bickering.
I didnt watch the video cause I'm lazy so attack me if on that if you want. My opinion: Give the parents a freaking opt-out or take away the opt-out for sex ed. As we all know I am rather appathetic about things that dont directly affect me, so I dont care about the happenings over there.
Now, the other issues.
This is a discussion thread, keep it that way. Personal jabs are not to be put here. Knock it off. Everyone has thier opinions. If you dont like someone's then get over it or state your own in a civil way. And I will be the one who decides if the board is to be on lock down or deleted.
Let people defend themselves, rein in your jealous rages, knock off the uncalled for (though highly amusing) jabs, and just generally...STFU and behave yourselves.
Go ahead and flame me. I'm a big girl and can take care of myself.
...and I'm not a tree.
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Echo
Gangsta'
The Drill Sergent and resident Buffalo
Climber of trees and burner of un-shiny trees.
Posts: 148
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Post by Echo on Oct 17, 2008 8:28:40 GMT -8
And here I was thinking to leave this thread in a kindly manner, only to be jabbed and prodded at as I leave the room. You take it as if I wasn't insulting every male on this forum..? Then you know very little of me. I am a climber of many tastes and that is but one of nature's fine specimens that I have climbed. Though what of you? Still climbing the weeping willow and stuck in the barren plains with only one tree? +Grabs the oil and torch+ You're welcome. I need not the kind gestures of others to feel better about myself, if indeed I can feel any better about the deity I am, unlike some self-conscious trees I know... Huzzah for the bickering. Not yet, but with a little water and sunlight, you could be.
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Post by silentstranger on Oct 17, 2008 8:36:23 GMT -8
you know Echo, you make yourself sound like such a little kid on this forum it's funny.
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